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Giles Field's avatar

I think we’re on the same track.

However you might want to read some John Searle. As you - I think - have noticed, subjectivity and objectivity gets confused due to this input/output thing that you’ve hit on which was why he preferred to split subjectivity and objectivity (and I think we do this without noticing).

For Searle:

Ontological subjectivity is one acting on one. This would be like the subjective feeling that is perspectival. A headache is purely subjective in this sense.

Epistemic subjectivity is one acting on many. When we share our opinions they are subjective but subjective in a different way to the headache because they are broadcast to an audience.

Ontological objectivity is many acting on many. A table is objectively here because many particles act on everyone in the whole room.

Epistemic objectivity is like being unbiased. You takes in many perspectives and then act in a single way..

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Jim Owens's avatar

I certainly wouldn't want to discourage thinking along these lines - it's heading in the right direction -- but I will play devil's advocate regarding some of the details.

Reframing the hard problem is exactly what we need to do. It's only hard if we assume that the universe does not contain experience from the get-go, because then we have to explain where it comes from -- but wait, didn't we already explain the whole universe without it? Calling that a "hard problem" is an understatement to the point of being ironic.

The first step is to admit the problem, but a lot of people won't even go that far. If we can get past the mental block, the next step is to reframe our thinking about the universe, so that we can accommodate the subjective as something fundamentally real that we need to start acknowledging. If you haven't read Nagel's The View from Nowhere yet, you might want to, because that's where he starts.

Reframing the hard problem as "Why do some things have a first-person perspective?" is a good suggestion, but I think it relies on Nagel's prior reframing of the first-person perspective as something that needs to be seriously reckoned with. The standard, obtuse answer to your reframing is of course "Because a first-person perspective evolved from the Big Bang via swamp muck, yada yada yada." From this obtuse vantage point, the alternative is not a purely objective universe, but an objective universe that simply didn't evolve a first-person perspective, much less a third-person perspective. The attempt to ridicule a third-person perspective as a "view from nowhere" actually embeds the notion of a first-person perspective, just one that's outside the rest of the universe. That's an effective way to highlight the absurdity of a "view from nowhere," but unfortunately not the absurdity of a universe that could exist in any fathomable sense without being known, or fathomed.

Nagel certainly treats the concept of the "view from nowhere" as the asymptotic convergence of multiple perspectives. -- But now I have to start cooking dinner. More later, maybe. You should check Nagel out.

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